Semper Idem (Always the Same)

via Pastoral Meanderings http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2013/06/semper-idem-always-same.html

so I changed my mind

It's a free country :) right? Stellman and Hahn changed their mind, that's ok, right? You changed your mind, so it seems. Is it only ok to change your mind, to have a change of heart if you go INTO the RC and not out OUT OF? Lots of people have left the RC...lots...and I guess, according to the RC, they are going to burn for eternity in hell, but they still leave. But I guess I won't since I never officially joined, so at least I have that going for me.

Trust me, I'm as shocked as you are. But looking back on it and being honest with myself, I think I was saying those things, reading all that I was reading, trying to convince myself that it was true. Does that make sense? Like you want something badly, but you're just not quite there, so you go in deep assuming that it will just happen eventually. Have you done this or know other people who have? Maybe with a car purchase for example, you rationalize all the reasons you *need* this car or that gadget or whatever. But for many, in the end, they just go with their gut and toss off the data. Or maybe go against their conscience even.

Did I change my mind by applying to logic and reason? Well, God gave us mind, body, soul, the Holy Spirit, etc, so I use all that God has given my and weigh both sides with plenty of data. And in the end, I don't think the Scriptures can be on equal footing with anyone or anything. And in fact, that was the view of the ECFs. For centuries, they held the view that the Scriptures were the only source of doctrine and truth and was the ultimate authority in doctrinal controversies. <-- I realize there is a lot to unpack in this statement, but it does not change the the nature of the Holy Writ.

I'm not sure if we're still "doing this" or not. Sounds like you are checking out by ignoring my previous emails and trying make my poor mental condition :) an excuse to just drop out. I'm going to send the following as something I read, I digested and will copy/paste and regurgitate as best I can to make a point.

So it wasn't until Trent ( and again at Vatican 1 ) that the Church was forced to firm up where they got indulgences, purgatory, celibate priests, papal supremacy, etc. So they came up with this 'unanimous consent of the fathers' idea. What interesting is even though they came up with this *principal*, Trent *merely affirmed the existence of the principle without providing documentary proof* for its validity. DOH!

Which is why you then have Johann Gerhard and Martin Chemnitz responding they way they did. They actually provided the documentation that the ECFs DID NOT in fact affirm the principals the RC claimed. Their work in pointing this out had such an impact that it has been said without the second Martin, the Reformation ( Lutheranism ) would have been undone...and where would we be now :) with just Catholicism and Calvinism...perish the thought. Just kidding. I'm sure there would still be thousands of denoms. Just like early controversies, various sects had numerous and rabid followers.

So, the principle of unanimous agreement/consent was three-fold...encompassing universality (believed everywhere), antiquity (believed always) and consent (believed by all). It seems it was first put forth by a Vincent of Lerins, who, by the way, readily agreed with the principle of sola Scriptura, that is, that Scripture was sufficient as the source of truth. But he was concerned about how one determined what was truly apostolic and catholic doctrine. This was the official position of the Church immediately subsequent to Vincent throughout the Middle Ages and for centuries immediately following Trent. But this principle, while fully embraced by Trent and Vatican I, has all been but abandoned by Rome today in a practical and formal sense.

Why? It is due to the fact that so much of Rome's teachings, upon historical examination, fail the test of unanimous consent. Some Roman Catholic historians are refreshingly honest in this assessment. Patrologist Boniface Ramsey, for example, candidly admits that the current Roman Catholic teachings on Mary and the papacy were not taught in the early Church:

Sometimes, then, the Fathers speak and write in a way that would eventually be seen as unorthodox. But this is not the only difficulty with respect to the criterion of orthodoxy. The other great one is that we look in vain in many of the Fathers for references to things that many Christians might believe in today. We do not find, for instance, some teachings on Mary or the papacy that were developed in medieval and modern times.

At first, this clear lack of patristic consensus led Rome to embrace a new theory in the late nineteenth century to explain its teachings—the theory initiated by John Henry Newman known as the development of doctrine. In light of the historical reality, Newman had come to the conclusion that the Vincentian principle of unanimous consent was unworkable, because, for all practical purposes, it was nonexistent. To quote Newman:
"It does not seem possible, then, to avoid the conclusion that, whatever be the proper key for harmonizing the records and documents of the early and later Church, and true as the dictum of Vincentius must be considered in the abstract, and possible as its application might be in his own age, when he might almost ask the primitive centuries for their testimony, it is hardly available now, or effective of any satisfactory result. The solution it offers is as difficult as the original problem."

Leaving out some stuff so as to fast forward. If you want to read the whole article, I can send you link...which brings us to post-19th century Vatican 1, current RC thought as quoted below by Karl Keating ( you've probably heard of him )

"Still, fundamentalists ask, where is the proof from Scripture? Strictly, there is none. It was the Catholic Church that was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly. The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true."

Whoa-ho-ho. That's strong words. So basically NOTHING has to have any support in the Bible OR by a unanimous consent of the fathers. They have evolved from the Scripture alone to a body that says they don't even need support from GODS HOLY WORD! Sounds sorta like Progressive Christianity to me.

It was this sort of evolution I'm talking about that troubles me. I had sent several emails about how things were just not clicking, having a tough time, starting to break down, etc. So it really wasn't "out of nowhere". One of them, you may remember, was how late in the game any sort of 'extra-biblical' doctrine of Mary started to develop. I mean, 300 - 400 years after Pentecost. And then it wasn't until the late 1800's that it was made dogma.
If you ask, 'how can they just create new dogmas' i guess they could say 'well, we're the church, we have the right ( that's what Keating is saying ), the power the authority to do this or that' and then you ask 'who gave you that authority' and they say 'well, we did.' BECAUSE THEY DID. They gave it to themselves. It's a bit circular really. Some may say the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is circular, but upon further reflection, I think you will see it's not. But this whole thing about how the RC is allowed to change the rules of the game because they are the RC...progressive, evolving, transitional.

The Scriptures COULD NOT SUPPORT their teachings, so then it was the unanimous consent of the father's, nope, that won't work either, so they had to evolve into something that allowed them to perpetuate their existence without ANY reliance on the HOLY SCRIPTURES or ECFs. None. If the RC teaches a doctrine, IT MUST BE TRUE because She says so.

I'm also trying to learn more about what 'is' sola scriptura and Canon formation. Again, not wanting to take protestants word on what Catholicism teaches and not wanting to take Catholics word on what Protestants teach. Also realize, I am coming at all this from a Lutheran point of view, not a Protestant/Baptist/Presbyterian/nondenom. So Real Presence, Baptism saves, Liturgy, Confession and Absolution, are all part of the mix for the Lutheran...well, most that is ;)

Something that has not left my mind since I read it. The Catholic Church says Muslims will be saved. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm then look for #839 and following . Also, in the same vein, that anyone who honestly seeks God ( even apart from the Church ) can/might/will?? be saved.

So Catholic doctrine teaches the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation ( at least it did, maybe that has evolved? ), then you read that Catholic doctrine teaches that Muslims will be saved, even though they aren't members of the Catholic Church...which is it? I guess I don't see how both can be true. And talking with Msgr. at St. Stephens, he said ( paraphrasing ) not to join under compulsion, but rather let my conscience guide me...and not force my wife to join either, but let her come on her own terms.

So if Muslims are saved, and salvation is not really dependent on being a member of the Catholic Church...and those who honestly seek a Creator are saved...and my conscience says no... then the Catholic Church is practically saying *don't join*. And if I join and leave, then I'm going to hell. But what if I earnestly seek God somewhere else? Does that count?

And..and :) around 1000 A.D., attendance at Catholic Mass was made mandatory under penalty of mortal sin. In other words, -- according to the Roman Catholic Church -- if anyone misses just one Catholic Mass ( each Sunday and "holy days of obligation" such as Christmas ) and does not have that sin forgiven by a Catholic Priest, that person, which I guess includes all Protestants, Eastern Orthodox and Messianic Jews since they don't go to a Catholic Mass, will spend forever in Hell.

I understand the fullness aspect. I think many Christians long to be part of a Church where the full historic nature of the Church is represented...at  least as best we can do in the enlightened, post-modern 21st century. But doesn't all this sound like new law that is not like the new law that Jesus gave?

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A  bit of a copy/paste from something online. I was wanting to develop this more fully, but will send as-is so maybe we can both work on it, looking up all the verses. I'm working through some of the Fisheater stuff as well.

With regards to Jesus saying the gates of hell would not prevent the church from growing/spreading ( think mustard seed parable ) I don't believe he is saying it would be free from error. But the weeds are to remain until the judgement. See Matthew 13 and more below.

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***Who or Where is the Authority

The authority is not in the body, but in the Head (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18). The ruling is not in the kingdom, but in the King (Heb. 7:1-2; Rev. 1:5-6). The authority is in not in the church, but in Christ (Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22). The church is not the Savior, but simply the body of the saved (Acts 2:47; Eph. 5:22-24).

---if the Isaiah 22, Matt 16, and Rev 3 verses *don't support* Peter being the first Pope, then the above verses would show no "sub-head" ( Pope ) is present or needed, more below.

***Subject to Who/Whom? Who do we follow?

I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." (John 10:11, 14-16). Jesus is that one good shepherd. If one can understand that one and one equals two, he can understand this. If one is subject to Christ as the one shepherd--that's one. If one is subject to the Pope as the one Shepherd--that's two.

The church is often compared to the human body in the Scriptures. The members of the church are represented as the various parts of the body. Christ is always said to be the head. (See 1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:15-16). The question is: "What part of the body is the Pope?" Also, "How does one get the idea of a sub-head into the body?"

***Did Jesus promise to keep the Church free from error?
There are many passages in the New Testament which reveal that the church would not be preserved from error. Acts 20:17, 28-30; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Thess. 2:3-11. We see from these passages that there was to come a great falling away from the truth. In Acts chapter twenty we learn that perverse things would come from the teachers/leaders of the church. Peter said (2 Pet. 2) that false teachers would arise among you (working from within) and there would be many who would follow them. Paul tell us (2 Thess. 2) that the apostasy was already underway, "for the mystery of iniquity is already at work..." (Verse 7). It started in Paul's day and was to continue until the second coming of Christ. He added, "...Whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of his mouth and will destroy with the brightness of his coming." (Verse 8).

ex cathedra

Unam Sanctam (1302) and Unigenitus (1713)
Let us briefly mention two other case of problematic applications of the concept of infallibility. We have already mentioned the famous bull Unam Sanctam.
Before Vatican II, it was typically considered Ex-Cathedra. As we have seen, other popes had expressed the same idea in more or less definitive documents. In the context of Unam Sanctam, Pope Boniface had the (Greek) Orthodox in mind:
Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John “there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.”
The bull concludes with this powerful and unambiguous statement:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Notice the similarity of language with the 1854 Papal proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, universally recognized as infallible by modern Roman Catholics:
We declare, we proclaim, we define...
This leads us to several questions that we leave unanswered:
Was Unam Sanctam Ex-Cathedra? Does the Roman Catholic Church still teach that “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff ?” and if no, why not? A few words should also be said about the controversial bull Unigenitus.
It does not bear the five marks of an Ex-Cathedra statement but it is worth studying because of these words for Pope Benedict XIV: The authority of the apostolic constitution which begins with the word

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Unigenitus is certainly so great and lays claim everywhere to such sincere veneration and obedience that no one can withdraw the submission due it or oppose it without risking the loss of eternal salvation.

And yet, Unigenitus condemns such ideas as: LXX. The reading of the Holy Scriptures is for all Again, we must realize that Orthodox prelates and synods have also condemned the private reading of the Holy Scriptures, a fact that shows the possible tension between ecclesiastical obedience and one’s own discerning of God’s commands.

 

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Basically, Pope Benedict says Catholics are to venerate, obey, and submit to Unigenitus and to oppose it risks loss of eternal salvation. A document that doesn't follow the definition of an ex-cathedra document. I understand that Benedict was probably just speaking his own mind, but for a Pope to say if you oppose the teachings of a document, then you're toast, that's strong words. A document which at the time said there is no salvation if you are not subject to the Roman Pontiff, the Catholic Church...which is a doctrine that has been loosened quite a lot in the last 100+ years or so.

It was news to me that ex-cathedra was not made 'official' until 1800+ years after Pentecost and now that it is official, who chooses to say what Pope made infallible doctrine?

purgatory

This hit me as a bit odd as well.The supporting verses for Purgatory, 1 Cor 3:10-15 and 1 Peter 1:3-7 which are then tied to praying for the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:45. I'm actually wondering if the two are even connected. In my brief study of prayers for the dead, it might have been a widely accepted 'custom', rather than a firmly established doctrine of 'gettin' people to heaven' quicker.

The notes in the USCCB Catholic Bible say this about the 1 Corinthians passage:
"The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this."

1 Peter 1:3-7 commentary
"The new birth is a sign of an imperishable inheritance (1 Pt 1:4), of salvation that is still in the future (to be revealed in the final time, 1 Pt 1:5).

Here is the 2 Macc verses, no commentary
"43He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought."

Also, there was mentioned a Daniel J. Harrington, Catholic scholar, agrees that those verses have nothing to do with Purgatory in his book 'Invitation to the Apocrypha'.

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Questions to ask about Purgatory ( from a Lutheran site )
- Read 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.  What will be burned up?  When (vs. 13)? - Read 1 Peter 1:3-7.  When will a Christian be “tested by fire” - Do either 1 Corinthians 3:15 or 1 Peter 3:7 have anything to do with purgatory? - Should the Church use a description of what a Jewish general (from the Apocrypha) did grieving for those who may have died outside the faith to make a doctrine?